" confronting canned responses to criticisms of the ZM

Gah - too long and boring - not constructive. Rather than arguing I'll spend my time working on solutions.

What seems to be happening there is that some people see inaccuracies in TZM/TVP and they follow this through by affirming the consequent and coming to the conclusion that TZM/TVP is entirely invalid.

Has PJ ever said "yes, you're right, I was wrong about xyz"? Maybe that would help?

I see problems with many aspects of TZM/TVP but I still support it, the whole movement is not invalidated by some inaccuracies, ego, flaws, and badly thought-out designs. When people have criticisms we should not get defensive and try to refute them off-hand, we should consider their points with great care and acknowledge where they have valid ones and accept that we need to revise our strategy, or explain in detail why their points are invalid, or simply ignore it and get on with something more constructive.

I'd agree with the last paragraph.

contradicts

> Has PJ ever said "yes, you're right, I was wrong about xyz"? Maybe that would help?

I reckon it would help a lot.

> I see problems with many aspects of TZM/TVP but I still support it, the whole movement is
> not
> invalidated by some inaccuracies, ego, flaws, and badly thought-out designs. When people
> have criticisms we should not get defensive and try to refute them off-hand, we should
> consider their points with great care and acknowledge where they have valid ones and
> accept
> that we need to revise our strategy, or explain in detail why their points are invalid, or
> simply
> ignore it and get on with something more constructive.

Totally agree there.

I was chatting just yesterday with VTV about his radio show, offering up suggestions to try and help (I noticed he was talking about geothermal power generation and wondering how he came to mention a particular technology that I'd been going on about, and he mentioned he's been looking though some of my old posts for ideas. So its nice to see people looking beyond the person and at the content.), as even though we disagree on some parts here and there, there is still common ground between us that we can work together on some level.

Design is really all about finding the mistakes and correcting them, as such, you want as much criticism as you can handle! so you can speed development along.

The worst businesses are those that refuse to listen to customers demands, and they don't tend to stay around too long..

Yep. I'm rather taken with the way VTV conducts himself. He, obviously, has wisdom, but appears to be an excellent listener, who actually hears what the other person is saying. There's an example of this in this interview with Paddy Joe Shannon:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/v-radio/2010/02/09/interview-with-paddy-sha...
A failure to understand and develop this humility can be observed in many of those we meet (and is, probably, due to the way some have been conditioned by this monetary system).

Pendulum: Yes, I did kind of contradict myself there. What I meant was that particular page was too long and boring for me to read through right now and give proper attention to, as I was busy with more constructive stuff